"All religions have this in common, that they are an outrage to common sense, for they are pieced together out of a variety of elements, some of which seem so unworthy, sordid, and at odds with man's reason that any strong and vigorous intelligence laughs at them." -Pierre Charron
Here's an article about a recent survey of Americans' knowledge about religion. While most articles I've read about the survey results express surprise, I expect most atheists would agree that it comes as no shock to find out that we know more about religion than actual religious people.
After all, it was an American survey. There are no definite numbers, but most studies show that less than 10% of Americans don't believe in some sort of God. Since over 90% do believe, and are teaching their children to do the same, it's far easier to simply believe by default. For most people, choosing to be an atheist is a decision that requires a lot of studying and "soul" searching, not to mention courage to be willing to face the incredible social stigma that comes with the title "Atheist." And of course, we don't have the luxury of answering any difficult question with "faith," every believer's favorite way of plugging their ears and saying "not listening!" So no, I'm not surprised.
However, it's the implications of the results that interest me most. Again unsurprisingly, I've yet to see any articles that mention this. It seems to me that the people who know the most about religion use that knowledge to make the decision to become atheistic. Does this mean that if more people took the time to study different religions, especially their own, they would also decide not to believe in them? It would appear most people's choices to follow a religion are not informed decisions. And do they subconsciously realize this, and choose not to learn more? Ignorance is bliss, right?
Along the same lines, I spent my whole adolescence being taught how horribly evil liberal higher education is. How difficult it is to maintain your faith, since everyone will be attacking it and you, especially professors. My mom even bought me the book How to Stay a Christian in College when I went. And it made sense, since most atheists are better educated than the average person. It wasn't till later that I realized, if higher education tends to lead one away from religion, is it likely that this is because schools are somehow just a bad influence? Or is it much more likely that a better education encourages atheism because once one learns the facts, it becomes increasingly clear that religion doesn't have a leg to stand on? Apologetics claims that science can be used to "prove" Christianity. So why do only 7% of our nation's leading scientists say they believe in a god, compared to around 7% who don't in the general population?
Obviously, one simple study doesn't prove any of these things. But it's interesting how few people seem to come away having even thought of them.
That to me is what faith is. It is choosing what to believe. Now that can be done in illegitimate ways. I would consider choosing to believe in something that does not have logical or material evidence to support it one of those ways. It can be used to say, “I do not care what the evidence says, I'm gonna believe whatever I want.” But that is not the only way that it can be used. What it's real purpose (or at least what I think it's legitimate use is) is to pick the thing that is right and/or rational thing when our emotions tells us it is wrong. It is what we use to believe the truth (or admittedly what some use to ignore it) in the face of our own desires and emotions.
ReplyDeleteSome people (atheists and believers) use it whenever someone challenges their beliefs.
Some people use it to do the right thing when they don't want to.
Some people use it to do the wrong thing when they know what's right.
Don't use the word faith as though it were an insult. It's just a tool. Like all tools it can be used in to build or it can be used to destroy, but regardless, it's one we all use.
2. One of the implications you use the study to say is that people who know more about religion choose not to believe in it. I'm living breathing proof that that is, at the very least, not always true. I think that there is a better explanation of the facts. I think most people who claim to be religious (or at the very least, Christian) either don't know what they're saying or they only say it because it's what they're expected to say. Once people get into college however they are suddenly away from all of those people that were telling them what a good thing it was to be a Christian and they're with all these people that are saying that Christianity is dumb and that there's all this fun stuff you can do if you just give it up. I very much doubt that most of the people who hold the “beliefs” they do do so because they've examined the evidence and come to a conclusion. Most people just go with what is easiest and pick whichever title they think the people around them will like best. I personally think that explains why most people are simply incapable of arguing their side and just shout their beliefs as loud as they can. “Christians” do this by saying they have “faith” and that means your wrong as loud as they can till the other person gives up and goes away. Atheists do this by shouting that religion/christianity/etc is retarded until they offend the other person and then claim that means they're right. Most people just say whatever lets them do what they want to and are really not interested in truth, “fact” or reality. In fact, most people find truth and reality offensive and intrusive.
3. Not so much a point as just something I want to say. Education isn't evil. It pisses me off when people say it is. It's a dumb thing to say and has no bearing on reality.
4. You mention above that there is “incredible social stigma that comes with the title "Atheist.”” I'd be willing to argue that there is growing social stigma that comes with the title “Christian.” Here's an example, if on TV you saw a panel that had on it a scientist, a philosopher, a Christian, which one would you immediately assume didn't know what he was talking about/ was biased/ was least educated/ wouldn't have a good argument? No where is that opinion growing faster than in the scientific realm and it has very little to do with what the facts are. Simply put, if you are a scientist and you put forth even the vaguest hints that you have any questions about evolution or that you may be a Christian, you are put not only under heavier scrutiny, you are in danger of loosing your job and ability to get a job.
Dang it. I thought this would be shorter and it ended up just as freaking long...
Rick
Blogger is acting idiotic, so here's the first part of Rick's comment. I've received three emails that he posted it, but it's still not showing.
ReplyDeleteI'm still planning to reply to your last comment on the other post, I just wanted to do something a little shorter first, since I don't have a lot of time at the moment. I've never cared much for comments like the quote you have at the beginning. I'm of the (sadly rare) opinion that if you make an opinion sound stupid you don't really understand it. But that's neither here nor there. I've tried to put a number before each of the points I want to make to make it easier to respond. We'll see if it works.
1. I personally just love it when people generalize people with opposing beliefs. For one thing it exposes areas where they have made assumptions or attempted to if not demonize (I don't mean to imply that you've done that in particular. I've just seen it happen a lot in those sorts of cases) the people they're talking about, to certainly make the other side seem less than they are. My experience has been that surprisingly few Christians use the “I've got Faith so it doesn't matter what the facts say” line and a surprisingly large number of atheists start shouting “Religion is retarded” as loudly as they can the moment you start to try to have a real conversation with them. When I say Christians though, I do not mean people who call themselves Christians. You can say that you are a vegetarian all you like, but if you go home and eat a steak you're either a liar or you didn't understand what a vegetarian was in the first place. In fact, I don't actually know of any Christians who would think that that was a legitimate use of faith. While I don't know if either of us wants to get into a discussion of what faith is, but I do think it will be helpful for future discussion for me to give my definition of the term.
One of the ways the term is defined is this “Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.” Now I think that many Christians and most atheists (that I've encountered) are of the opinion that that means that faith is holding onto a belief in spite of the facts. That's certainly not what I mean when I say it, and I don't think that that fits a biblical definition of the word either.
Now I'm sure that at least most people have at least one irrational fear. I certainly have experienced them over the course of my life. One such example is that when I was very young I was afraid of thunder. Not lightning. Thunder. Whenever there was a thunderstorm I would spend the entire night lying awake and absolutely terrified. For the longest time my only other option was to go and sleep with my parents. Eventually I became old enough that that was embarrassing. So I had to overcome my fear. So I told myself over and over again that the thunder could not hurt me. I taught myself to believe it and to ignore it. Slowly I learned to put my faith in the fact that thunder was just a loud noise and could do me no harm. Now, I want to stress that I obtained no new information. I did not use logic or material evidence to prove to myself that thunder was not something to be afraid of. I just chose to believe it.
Actually, I didn’t love that quote either. I just have this irrational attachment to putting quotes at the beginning of my posts. Actually I just have an irrational attachment to quotes in general. I couldn’t find one that really went with this topic, so that’s what I settled for. I don’t agree though, that making an opinion sound stupid does not necessarily indicate that you don’t understand it. I would contend, in fact, that those who understand a subject the most thoroughly are in the best position to deliver a devastating critique that makes it look completely stupid. But that’s neither here nor there either. We can agree to not care for the quote.
ReplyDelete1. If you can provide me with a legitimate alternative to generalizing about beliefs, especially in Christianity, I would be more than happy to put it into practice. Unfortunately, there are hundreds if not thousands of sects within Christianity, and sometimes the only thing they can agree on is that they don’t agree about anything. I can’t give equal time to every belief on every subject, there’s no space and I don’t know enough about them all. I will say that of the 16 subjects I have on my list to cover, only 3 are specifically directed at Christianity. The rest are all generalized, though I may at time make more specific points within the general subject matter that refer to a particular belief.
You say you know surprisingly few Christians who would use the “I’ve got Faith so it doesn’t matter what the facts say” line, and surprisingly large number of atheists who start shouting “Religion is retarded” when you try to have a real conversation. That is your personal experience. My personal experience is the exact opposite. I know quite a few atheists (though not a ton), and none of them would stoop to that when engaged in a real debate with a Christian. And I’ve spoken to many, many Christians who refuse to give science a real hearing, because they “know in their hearts” that they’re right.
Saying you don’t consider some people who call themselves Christians “true Christians” is just fine and dandy, but I’m not writing this to specifically counter exactly what YOU consider “true Christianity.” Christianity is not so easily defined as vegetarianism. Like I said, there are an incredible number of different beliefs that are all lumped under the term Christianity.
As far as the faith thing goes, you can say you don’t know of any Christians who would consider it a legitimate argument. Unfortunately I’ve met many of them. Including many members of my family. Which is not to say that they’re the types who won’t listen to a reasoned argument. They are, however, the types that, when confronted with a conflict between what they believe or what the bible says, and science or logic, they will always choose what they believe, no matter what the evidence against it. Because they have faith that God’s word is true. I’m pretty sure most, if not all, young earth Christians are this type. I suppose that falls somewhere in between your definition and the stereotypical “you’re wrong so there.” I recognize that your definition of faith is perfectly valid. In fact I would agree that it is the best. However, that does NOT mean that all Christians agree with you. Faith as the default answer to any logical question is *extremely* prevalent. Dan Barker, a former preacher, wrote an entire book on the subject, “Losing Faith With Faith” He became an atheist after he realized the illogicity of this kind of faith.
I’m considering a post to clarify what *I* mean by faith.
(continued)
ReplyDelete2. I never said that all people who know more about religion choose to reject it. I would say your point about many people who claim to be Christians just say it because that’s how they were raised or it’s what they’re expected to say is probably valid. I don’t think it’s a better explanation necessarily, but perhaps an additional one. Both of our points have merit, and between the two perhaps they explain the results of the survey. Though your comment that, “I very much doubt that most of the people who hold the ‘beliefs’ they do do so because they've examined the evidence and come to a conclusion,” is sort of my point. How many of those people who are Christians by default would continue to be if they actually studied the facts? I phrased it as a question on purpose. I don’t know the answer. You would say, based on your experience, that many of they would remain Christian. I would say, based on mine, that many wouldn’t. It’s interesting to discuss, but we can’t really know unless we somehow manage to educate them all.
I do find it rather frustrating that you assume many people become atheists in college because “oh wow, all that sex and alcohol and drugs sure looks like fun.” People may use that as an excuse to not bother with Christianity anymore, but I’d wager that almost none of them would be willing to take the leap of actually becoming Atheists. They would almost defintely continue to believe in God, and even if they didn’t they probably still would simply call themselves nonbelievers. Studies suggest that only 3% of America’s population call themselves atheists, as opposed to as many as 14% who say they are nonbelievers.
4. Which brings us to our social stigma. To begin with, yes there is a stigma against the intelligence of Christians. This stems almost entirely from young earth Christians and creationists (or Intelligent Design-ists, if you prefer, it’s all the same) who insist that they are right despite the COMPLETE lack of scientific evidence to back them up. They continue to try to insist that Intelligent Design deseves at least equal time in science books in schools (if they had their way they’d leave out evolution entirely), despite the fact that it’s not a valid *scientific* theory at all. We live in a country that is supposed to have complete freedom of religion (and by extension, freedom from religion), yet our last president has been quoted as saying that “the jury is still out” on evolution. No, it’s not. No reputable scientist has any doubts about evolution. You may argue it’s because they’re all just too afraid to speak up, but the fact is that nearly every branch of science provides overwhelming evidence to support it. Evolution is a fact, it is only referred to as a theory because the scientific definition is different from the common one. So yeah, Christians are losing some respect, and I am sorry for the non-young earth creationist Christians who are being stigmatized along with the ones who really deserve it.
However, that doesn’t even compare to what it’s like to be an atheist. Check out this article- http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheistSurveys.htm. The majority of people I’ve admitted my atheism to have had a decidedly negative reaction. Get a panel with a Christian, an Atheist, and a Muslim, and ask people which one they’d let spend time with their kids. I’m in childcare. I couldn’t even apply for many of the jobs I looked at because you had to be a Christian. Even in my current position, it’s possible that if the fact that I’m an atheist ever came out, I could lose my job. The episode of Glee dealing with atheism (the “Grilled Cheesus” episode) shows a very accurate depiction of common attitudes towards atheism. Everyone is horrified to learn Kurt is an atheist, even though nearly all of them have long since accepted that he’s gay. It is not an understatement in any way to say that atheists are America’s most distrusted minority.
Waaaait a minute. I was just thinking about it and realized that your example of a panel on a news story consisting of a philosopher, a scientist, and a Christian doesn't provide enough information to make any sense. Firstly, that grouping is comparing apples to oranges. "Christian" is merely a description of their religious beliefs, whereas scientist and philosopher are careers. Is this a Christian a garbageman, preacher, scientist? And secondly, what are they discussing? There are some areas I would assume a Christian (who works in a field appropriate to said area) would be a very good source of accurate information. There are others I would not. Need more information!
ReplyDelete1. I think we should agree that quotes are awesome... except when they're not =)
ReplyDelete2. On “Generalizing” I never said anything about generalizing about beliefs. Generalize all you want about those (though if you're going to respond to something, it seems to me you'd want to be specific. But that's neither here nor there). I said generalize about people with opposing beliefs. For the most part that was in response to “And of course, we don't have the luxury of answering any difficult question with "faith," every believer's favorite way of plugging their ears and saying "not listening!"” If you want to make Christians sound like they are stupid and don't think their opinions through, that's fine. I'll be here to prove you wrong. =)
3. On “You say you know...” I think my point was meant to be something along the lines of “There are jerks and idiots on both sides.” rather than to say that my experience trumps yours, but I didn't communicate that very well, so sorry for that.
4. On “Saying you don't...” I don't expect you to counter exactly what I consider Christianity. Until you respond directly to my comments. I'm assuming that you are writing this blog because you have an opinion that you think is correct and are trying to communicate it. I'm responding specifically because I disagree with what you are saying and I think that my position is correct and that what is true is what matters. So I want to be as clear as possible in where I stand on different issues so that you don't confuse what I believe with what the majority believe so that we can have a discussion with as few bumps as possible.
Also, my point was not that some people say they believe a thing and through either ignorance or by simply being liars act in a way that is completely contradictory to what they claim to believe. My point had little to do with the disagreements about what Christianity meant, and everything to do with the plain fact that a huge number of people claim to be Christian without understanding what that means or while saying and doing things that directly oppose the beliefs they've espoused.